Comments on: Foreign Fees http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2007/06/07/foreign-fees/ A collaborative blog advocating ethics in adoption Sun, 28 Feb 2010 22:02:20 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Voices for Vietnam Adoption Integrity » Blog Archive » Official Fee Schedule Coming Soon? http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2007/06/07/foreign-fees/comment-page-1/#comment-234 Voices for Vietnam Adoption Integrity » Blog Archive » Official Fee Schedule Coming Soon? Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:26:47 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2007/06/07/foreign-fees/#comment-234 [...] is very welcome news. As I said in my post back in June publishing a list of fees will go a long way toward protecting the adoption process from [...] [...] is very welcome news. As I said in my post back in June publishing a list of fees will go a long way toward protecting the adoption process from [...]

]]> By: Karl http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2007/06/07/foreign-fees/comment-page-1/#comment-159 Karl Sat, 11 Aug 2007 18:07:54 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2007/06/07/foreign-fees/#comment-159 Something has happened although I've not seen the full text yet: The Ministry of Finance's Decision 67/2007/QD-BTC of Aug 1, 2007. 'Guidelines for collecting, managing and using charges required in adopting a child'. I've been here in VN for over four years, working for the VNese gov't, and live and work only with VNese people. Bribes are absolutely universal, but are called something like gratuities or commissions. The concept of 'corruption' feels dirty coming from the Western reality. Here it's the very air we breath. It's in the pores of everything. Normal. Accepted because it must be accepted. Absolutely everything in the country would stop, including adoptions, if the normal gratuities and commissions were not paid. This is called 'an envelope culture' because this 'corruption money' is cash rather openly handed over inside of envelopes. I'm quite sure that there can be no 'business deal' involving thousands of US dollars that does not include serious money slipping into a number of pockets. THIS should cause those who are ethical purists to pause and think again 'does the means justify the end'. Ignorance is bliss but knowledge is sometimes too much to bear. I, too, am trying to adopt, and I am an ethical purist. It's so easy here to just trade money for a child. Just a week ago another lady came to me wanting to give me one of her children in exchange for a gratuity. In this community people feel that its unfortunate that people have economic hardship, but many do, and they feel that its only right that the one with money 'helps' the one with so little (you take the baby, you give me money, for example). And gratuities, appropriately small to large, get paid to everyone involved in any sort of monetary transaction. Everyone living here is totally aware of this - including everyone working at the US Embassy. They know they are giving people free passes in giving visas to all these adopted babies. Thank them with all your heart - but no gratuities will be accepted. Something has happened although I’ve not seen the full text yet: The Ministry of Finance’s Decision 67/2007/QD-BTC of Aug 1, 2007. ‘Guidelines for collecting, managing and using charges required in adopting a child’. I’ve been here in VN for over four years, working for the VNese gov’t, and live and work only with VNese people. Bribes are absolutely universal, but are called something like gratuities or commissions. The concept of ‘corruption’ feels dirty coming from the Western reality. Here it’s the very air we breath. It’s in the pores of everything. Normal. Accepted because it must be accepted. Absolutely everything in the country would stop, including adoptions, if the normal gratuities and commissions were not paid. This is called ‘an envelope culture’ because this ‘corruption money’ is cash rather openly handed over inside of envelopes.
I’m quite sure that there can be no ‘business deal’ involving thousands of US dollars that does not include serious money slipping into a number of pockets.
THIS should cause those who are ethical purists to pause and think again ‘does the means justify the end’. Ignorance is bliss but knowledge is sometimes too much to bear. I, too, am trying to adopt, and I am an ethical purist. It’s so easy here to just trade money for a child. Just a week ago another lady came to me wanting to give me one of her children in exchange for a gratuity. In this community people feel that its unfortunate that people have economic hardship, but many do, and they feel that its only right that the one with money ‘helps’ the one with so little (you take the baby, you give me money, for example). And gratuities, appropriately small to large, get paid to everyone involved in any sort of monetary transaction. Everyone living here is totally aware of this – including everyone working at the US Embassy. They know they are giving people free passes in giving visas to all these adopted babies. Thank them with all your heart – but no gratuities will be accepted.

]]> By: adoption » Blog Archive » Foreign Fees http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2007/06/07/foreign-fees/comment-page-1/#comment-76 adoption » Blog Archive » Foreign Fees Sat, 23 Jun 2007 20:25:36 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2007/06/07/foreign-fees/#comment-76 [...] Article 17 sections 1-2 of the US-VN Agreement Regarding Cooperation on the Adoption of Children As you can see from the above excerpt, when the Final Agreement (aka “Memorandum of Understanding”) was signed in June 2005, … …more [...] [...] Article 17 sections 1-2 of the US-VN Agreement Regarding Cooperation on the Adoption of Children As you can see from the above excerpt, when the Final Agreement (aka “Memorandum of Understanding”) was signed in June 2005, … …more [...]

]]> By: Stacy http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2007/06/07/foreign-fees/comment-page-1/#comment-52 Stacy Sat, 09 Jun 2007 00:22:23 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2007/06/07/foreign-fees/#comment-52 Brilliant post as always, and as usual tackling a subject that has been much on my mind lately. It really frightens me that people get told that a new orphanage in the north will cost $3,000 because "costs are higher in the north" and nobody questions it because they are so anxious for their referral. That is a real example from a while back that still haunts me. You do bring up some really great points though that I hadn't considered about why the higher costs may indeed be justified. Like you, I tend to be paranoid and suspicious when I see those higher costs and fast referrals. I will email you off-line with the info for my agency, which will likely shock you (in a positive way). Of course the program is new and nobody has traveled yet - so we have yet to see if the agency can stick with their in-country fee or if they will be pressured to raise it. I hope more people keep hopping over here and really think about what you are posting - and as usual, I thank you for getting this going and challenging us to keep informed and thinking. Brilliant post as always, and as usual tackling a subject that has been much on my mind lately. It really frightens me that people get told that a new orphanage in the north will cost $3,000 because “costs are higher in the north” and nobody questions it because they are so anxious for their referral. That is a real example from a while back that still haunts me. You do bring up some really great points though that I hadn’t considered about why the higher costs may indeed be justified. Like you, I tend to be paranoid and suspicious when I see those higher costs and fast referrals. I will email you off-line with the info for my agency, which will likely shock you (in a positive way). Of course the program is new and nobody has traveled yet – so we have yet to see if the agency can stick with their in-country fee or if they will be pressured to raise it. I hope more people keep hopping over here and really think about what you are posting – and as usual, I thank you for getting this going and challenging us to keep informed and thinking.

]]> By: VN PAP http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2007/06/07/foreign-fees/comment-page-1/#comment-51 VN PAP Fri, 08 Jun 2007 22:49:34 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2007/06/07/foreign-fees/#comment-51 Thank you for this post! I have been concerned about this since I was researching agencies. Individuals are supportive of their agencies with statements like "I was never asked for additional money or bribes", but with a 50% difference in fees between some agencies ($9000 to $15,000) couldn't that be used for bribes that parents aren't aware about. Makes me suspicious when it's those charging $15,000 that are getting quick referrals. Thank you for this post! I have been concerned about this since I was researching agencies. Individuals are supportive of their agencies with statements like “I was never asked for additional money or bribes”, but with a 50% difference in fees between some agencies ($9000 to $15,000) couldn’t that be used for bribes that parents aren’t aware about. Makes me suspicious when it’s those charging $15,000 that are getting quick referrals.

]]> By: Good Things « Mrs. Broccoli Guy http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2007/06/07/foreign-fees/comment-page-1/#comment-50 Good Things « Mrs. Broccoli Guy Fri, 08 Jun 2007 21:39:35 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2007/06/07/foreign-fees/#comment-50 [...] this is a weird item on my “Good Thing” list but it made me smile so… My latest post on VVAI was highlighted on Google Alerts (for the search category “Vietnam Adoption“). I know, [...] [...] this is a weird item on my “Good Thing” list but it made me smile so… My latest post on VVAI was highlighted on Google Alerts (for the search category “Vietnam Adoption“). I know, [...]

]]> By: Jenny http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2007/06/07/foreign-fees/comment-page-1/#comment-49 Jenny Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:44:15 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2007/06/07/foreign-fees/#comment-49 YOu wanna hear something disturbing..... In Ireland (which the process on the front end takes longer but in country is like 1 week and of which C is a citizen) the fees for adoption in Viet Nam are 5-7k (if that) for the country fee. Why such a discrepancy? If C and I could go and live in Ireland we would be able to afford another adoption Now. Yup, where is that fee schedule. BUT...people who bring it up like it is going to slam shut the door any second are wrong, they wouldn't have let it open if it was as important as they claim it to be. YOu wanna hear something disturbing…..

In Ireland (which the process on the front end takes longer but in country is like 1 week and of which C is a citizen) the fees for adoption in Viet Nam are 5-7k (if that) for the country fee.

Why such a discrepancy? If C and I could go and live in Ireland we would be able to afford another adoption Now.

Yup, where is that fee schedule.

BUT…people who bring it up like it is going to slam shut the door any second are wrong, they wouldn’t have let it open if it was as important as they claim it to be.

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