I agree that there is lots of grey area when it comes to criteria for what constitutes “unethical.” But some things are pretty cut and dried, and it’s not just limited to one or two agencies.

As I’ve mentioned, I have personally emailed anyone who asked about the agency we started with about the fact that they lied to me about using an in-country facilitator who was investigated by INS. Many, if not most, of the people I took the risk and shared this first-hand (not hearsay) information with, went ahead and used them anyway. I’m sure it was tempting because they were promising fast referrals. (In fact, they offered me a referral even before my paperwork was done. Another huge red flag). Yet they continually are listed on other lists/groups as a “great agency.”

Tracy, I understand that you’re trying to stop the negativity, the assaults against PAPs, and bring some sense into what can become a crazy conversation. But util this agency (referenced above) and others like it are having a hard time finding PAP clients, I think the real problem is PAPs not knowing or ignoring warning signs–not that they’re being needlessly beat up on.

And unfortunately when you focus on the latter rather than the former, some PAPs find it easier to ignore red flags they might see (”Oh, I heard on that adoption integrity site that it’s really only a few agencies, so it can’t be mine.”)

Heidi

I guess what I am saying is that, for me, I am not speaking for VVAI or Nicki or Chris or Rachel(or any other contributor, guest or not), I would not and did not use them. Like I said before, there are agencies doing all of the things I mentioned and more, so it makes no sense to me to use one that isn’t. If anyone would like to know which agencies, please, please email me(as one person already has).

I really appreciate your perspective and all the effort you are putting into the comments here because it does help anyone reading this site to see all the different sides, I really do believe that is important.

I think we can all agree that there are a few uber-ethical agencies operating in Vietnam, and a few extremely shady agencies, and there are obviously a whole bunch in the middle.

I guess it is up to each individual and family if they want to settle for middle of the road or not.

My comment about things not being so black and white did not refer to how that agency answered its questions (I agree they were very honest and upfront), but that choosing an ethical agency based on your questions is not a black and white issue. First of all, the above agency is ethical and I doubt one person would be able to refute that. So that being said, if this agency could not pass the stringent “ethical” standards that are being put forth I doubt many could. My main point with all of this is that it is hard to know exactly which agencies are supposedly ethical. PAPs get bashed so much for the choices they make and its things like this that make it a no win situation. If Children’s Hope Intl (the above agency I got these questions from) can not pass your guidelines then who do people turn to? Just because an agency is not supporting domestic adoption does not make it an unethical agency. Who are you (or me or anyone) to say that domestic adoption (or any other project) is a more worthy cause then whatever else they are putting their $150,000 towards. And does an agency that puts say $10,000 towards domestic adoption rank above an agency that spends $50,000 on developing programs within the community that benefit more than just orphans (I don’t know what their money goes toward, I am just using that as an example). I do think PAPs should be asking questions and not just going with the agency that can get them a child the fastest. And I do think that now any agency that said you could get a baby girl immediately would be suspect. But there are over 40 agencies to choose from and some may meet the needs of PAPs while others do not. Maybe one agency puts its money towards ensuring the health of the children; some people may feel that is what is important to them. That doesn’t make that agency worse than one that supports domestic adoption and it certainly does not make it unethical.

I really believe the thinking needs to be changed on this whole subject. The Vietnam program has become so hostile towards PAPs and it’s making people defensive. Just because you personally do not LIKE an agency, does not mean it does not meet the needs of some PAPs. I have heard over and over “how many NOIDS does an agency have to get before it’s too many for people not use them, one is too many for me”. Well, are the people that have been saying that going to pull out of using CHI? Or did they (CHI) see a problem and react appropriately to it (at least it looks like that from the response they gave). To me that is the sign of an ethical agency- one that continued to use that facilitator and received more NOIDs would be something to look at. So maybe that can be part of the criteria for an ethical agency, how they responded when issues presented themselves that were not ideal.

I’m not in any way saying this isn’t an important subject, but let’s not pit people against each other. First let’s recognize that there are many ethical agencies out there and probably only a few that are not. Lets define what makes an agency unethical (and I personally believe it should be something that is indisputable since UNETHICAL is a strong word to use)….or define what an ethical agency is, but if you are going to do that make sure the ethical agencies can pass the test because if they can not you loose credibility (IMO). You can’t have it all ways; you can’t make PAPs guess at which agencies are unethical and post questions that supposedly make up an ethical agency when most of the agencies can’t pass your test. People are being vilified right now and it’s just not fair. The same guidelines should be able to be applied to all agencies across the board. You can’t say “well, CHI didn’t answer the way I thought they would but they are ethical” and Agency X answered the same way but we think they are one of the unethical agencies. That isn’t fair to the agencies, the PAPs or the AP who have used those agencies.

This debate is causing a lot of division within the Vietnam adoption community and I personally do not think people should be able to decide for others what is ethical or not based on personal opinion. If you want to decide for your own personal adoption and adhere whatever criteria you want then obviously that is your right, but it’s not anyone else’s right to impose their standards about which programs are the most worthy onto other PAPs and then criticize them for not following your moral code.

I do believe there are agencies that are not operating in an ethical manner; I don’t think there could be this much smoke without there being fire somewhere. But I think so many people on this board have jumped on this band wagon and they refuse to step back and see that this is not an easy answer for anyone. I am not trying to give PAPs a way out and let them turn a blind eye to shady dealings, but this should be a community and a forum where you can come to get support and information, not hate mail and made to feel like you are a selfish horrible person for the choices you make.

All agencies are not equal and it makes it hard to choose one since Vietnam does not have a standardized program as of yet. Why not recognize that this is not an easy decision, that (most) people are doing the best they can and that most of us do care about the children we are adopting and those left behind. Let’s give PAPs the benefit of the doubt and offer support and education and not condemnation for their choices. It may not change that PAPs choice of agency, but it may affect 10 more people reading and keep them from using an agency that really is potentially harming the system and not working in the best interest of the children.

Tracy

I hear what you’re saying; that it’s not super black and white. But I think there are lots of instances where people hear negative information about an agency they’re investigating–real negative information from people who have first-hand information–and they move foward anyway, perhaps because that agency is promising things they want gender-wise, or timeline-wise. As I’ve mentioned before, I personally have emailed dozens of people about a specific agency that I initially worked with, who lied to me about using as an in-country facilitator someone who has previously been investigated by INS. Many, if not most of those people (who I risked being honest with) proceeded to move foward with that agency, in part, I assume, because they promised quick referrals for infant girls. However, that promise–in fact, to me they promised a referral before my paperwork was done–was one of the major warning signs for me. Still, plenty of PAPs are ignoring those warning signs, as I see people posting their referrals from that agency all the time. That’s what’s disheartening.

As far as the agency Tracy contacted trying to justify their program by saying domestic adoption is stigmatized and there are no good programs in place for that in Vietnam, that is bunk. They say that because they don’t do it and don’t want PAPs thinking they are bad for not doing it. Hey, if the country still has a long way to go in supporting domestic adoptions, as the agency states, then why isn’t the agency on the bandwagon to make the practice more common?

Bottom line, agencies should be doing all they can in-country to keep the kids in-country. Unfortunately, very few agencies actually do this.

Tracy-
Actually, to me the answers that the agency you contacted are very black and white to me. When I said to ask the quesions, what I meant was that the agency should have appropriate responses to ALL the questions in order for me to consider them. So the fact that the agency didn’t have appropriate responses to #3, #6,#7(there certainly ARE programs promoting adoptions within Vietnam) #9.
That would be 4 out of 10 questions that have less than best responses, to me even 1 response that was less than the best would have been far too many.

There are agencies operating in Vietnam that do all of this and more, so in my mind there is absolutely not reason to go with an agency who isn’t.