Comments on: Summary of Irregularities in Adoptions in Vietnam http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/25/summary-of-irregularities-in-adoptions-in-vietnam/ A collaborative blog advocating ethics in adoption Sun, 28 Feb 2010 22:02:20 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Finally, time to process news from Viet Nam (or) Our adoption decisions, Part 1ish « Catch the trade winds http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/25/summary-of-irregularities-in-adoptions-in-vietnam/comment-page-1/#comment-1820 Finally, time to process news from Viet Nam (or) Our adoption decisions, Part 1ish « Catch the trade winds Sun, 04 May 2008 00:44:00 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=135#comment-1820 [...] if you haven’t read the report from the U.S. Embassy in Viet Nam, please do so (actually, this is a better summary with excerpts from the Embassy report from VVAI). I was trying to explain to a friend today what that means to me, to us, to our plans, and I was [...] [...] if you haven’t read the report from the U.S. Embassy in Viet Nam, please do so (actually, this is a better summary with excerpts from the Embassy report from VVAI). I was trying to explain to a friend today what that means to me, to us, to our plans, and I was [...]

]]> By: Amy http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/25/summary-of-irregularities-in-adoptions-in-vietnam/comment-page-1/#comment-1746 Amy Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:49:31 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=135#comment-1746 You are not alone in your thoughts Laura. I'm so disappointed today. So sad for our children. You are not alone in your thoughts Laura.
I’m so disappointed today. So sad for our children.

]]> By: Amy http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/25/summary-of-irregularities-in-adoptions-in-vietnam/comment-page-1/#comment-1744 Amy Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:45:49 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=135#comment-1744 I agree. I want to know the names too! My children will want these answers someday. We need to have all of this information. I think we will eventually know, but look at the damage that has been done. What part of our kids' past was true...what was fabricated? I agree. I want to know the names too! My children will want these answers someday. We need to have all of this information. I think we will eventually know, but look at the damage that has been done. What part of our kids’ past was true…what was fabricated?

]]> By: Dick Graham http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/25/summary-of-irregularities-in-adoptions-in-vietnam/comment-page-1/#comment-1741 Dick Graham Tue, 29 Apr 2008 15:03:21 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=135#comment-1741 I will correct you. I don't know who you are using to adopt from Vietnam but it is not our agency. We don't charge $30,000! Our fee was the same when adoptions reopened as it was when adoptions closed at the end of 2002, $12,000. Only in the last few months have we increased it to $14,000. This pays our staff here and all office expenses, our staff in Vietnam and all their expenses, our commitments through the MOU's that we have with the five orphanages we work with, and other incidentals along the way like typhoon humanitarian relief, medical care when needed for the children, sending kids to school, help for the elderly, surgeries, etc. I am tired of the broad brush that has been used to paint all Vietnamese adoptions as tainted. It is simply not true. We have worked in Vietnam for 18 years. Are there unethical adoptions in Vietnam? Sure. Are all of them unethical? No. Are there unethical adoptions in all countries? You bet there are. Should all international adoptions be stopped because some are unethical? Maybe you think they should, I don't because we will never have 100% perfect adoptions. The saying don't throw the baby out with the bath water applies here. Most of the agencies working in Vietnam are good ethical hardworking people who have devoted their lives to helping not only the children being adopted but the other children that are left behind. Well now it has finally happened. Vietnam has had enough of the United States and will be pulling all US agency licenses in Vietnam on September 1. End of the problem except for all the children and orphanages that depend on the aid form the US agencies. By necessity, since we will have no funds available to give for humanitarian aid, our aid to them will stop on September 1 as will most other agencies. It a very sad final chapter to all the hard work agencies and their staff have put in over the last 20 years. When I first went to Vietnam in 1990 I saw children with rags for diapers laying on newspapers like they were in a bird cage, I saw orphanages cutting the formula in half because they did not have enough to go around, I saw orphanages without clean water, I saw children die of diarrhea, and orphanages in total disrepair. There was little or no aid to the orphanages. As the years passed and we were able to bring more aid to them, the conditions at the orphanages improved and the children's health improved. We saw positive results everywhere. I hope we do not see a reversal in the results achieved over these almost twenty years. We will provide what little we can but it will be up to the agencies from other countries to step in and fill the void. Dick Graham IAAP I will correct you. I don’t know who you are using to adopt from Vietnam but it is not our agency. We don’t charge $30,000! Our fee was the same when adoptions reopened as it was when adoptions closed at the end of 2002, $12,000. Only in the last few months have we increased it to $14,000. This pays our staff here and all office expenses, our staff in Vietnam and all their expenses, our commitments through the MOU’s that we have with the five orphanages we work with, and other incidentals along the way like typhoon humanitarian relief, medical care when needed for the children, sending kids to school, help for the elderly, surgeries, etc.

I am tired of the broad brush that has been used to paint all Vietnamese adoptions as tainted. It is simply not true. We have worked in Vietnam for 18 years. Are there unethical adoptions in Vietnam? Sure. Are all of them unethical? No. Are there unethical adoptions in all countries? You bet there are. Should all international adoptions be stopped because some are unethical? Maybe you think they should, I don’t because we will never have 100% perfect adoptions. The saying don’t throw the baby out with the bath water applies here. Most of the agencies working in Vietnam are good ethical hardworking people who have devoted their lives to helping not only the children being adopted but the other children that are left behind.

Well now it has finally happened. Vietnam has had enough of the United States and will be pulling all US agency licenses in Vietnam on September 1. End of the problem except for all the children and orphanages that depend on the aid form the US agencies. By necessity, since we will have no funds available to give for humanitarian aid, our aid to them will stop on September 1 as will most other agencies.

It a very sad final chapter to all the hard work agencies and their staff have put in over the last 20 years. When I first went to Vietnam in 1990 I saw children with rags for diapers laying on newspapers like they were in a bird cage, I saw orphanages cutting the formula in half because they did not have enough to go around, I saw orphanages without clean water, I saw children die of diarrhea, and orphanages in total disrepair. There was little or no aid to the orphanages. As the years passed and we were able to bring more aid to them, the conditions at the orphanages improved and the children’s health improved. We saw positive results everywhere. I hope we do not see a reversal in the results achieved over these almost twenty years. We will provide what little we can but it will be up to the agencies from other countries to step in and fill the void.

Dick Graham
IAAP

]]> By: F http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/25/summary-of-irregularities-in-adoptions-in-vietnam/comment-page-1/#comment-1720 F Mon, 28 Apr 2008 23:04:47 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=135#comment-1720 Excuse me, but I want the US Embassy employees under oath before Congress. I'd like to hear testimony on just what they did find, how many cases, and I'd like people to be able to ask questions of them. You know why the US government would never give you names? Because it opens them to a lawsuit, particularly if the US hasn't given people all the facts. We have a broken US government, why is this issue any different than all the other messes created by the US. Until they provide facts and numbers and tell Congress in person the details behind their report, maybe this is all political or someone's personal agenda. Excuse me, but I want the US Embassy employees under oath before Congress. I’d like to hear testimony on just what they did find, how many cases, and I’d like people to be able to ask questions of them.

You know why the US government would never give you names? Because it opens them to a lawsuit, particularly if the US hasn’t given people all the facts.

We have a broken US government, why is this issue any different than all the other messes created by the US. Until they provide facts and numbers and tell Congress in person the details behind their report, maybe this is all political or someone’s personal agenda.

]]> By: Pho For Five » Blog Archive » A Loss for Words http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/25/summary-of-irregularities-in-adoptions-in-vietnam/comment-page-1/#comment-1713 Pho For Five » Blog Archive » A Loss for Words Mon, 28 Apr 2008 15:54:51 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=135#comment-1713 [...] announcement on adoption irregularities in Vietnam, please take a look or read it on VVAI along with informed commentary.  It is beyond disturbing to read the findings of USCIS’s [...] [...] announcement on adoption irregularities in Vietnam, please take a look or read it on VVAI along with informed commentary.  It is beyond disturbing to read the findings of USCIS’s [...]

]]> By: music mondays - The Kooks « Cheers Y’all! http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/25/summary-of-irregularities-in-adoptions-in-vietnam/comment-page-1/#comment-1712 music mondays - The Kooks « Cheers Y’all! Mon, 28 Apr 2008 15:11:28 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=135#comment-1712 [...] other news that won’t be news to anyone in adoption-land, please check out this post at VVAI - it links to a long letter from the US Embassy concerning irregularites in Vietnam [...] [...] other news that won’t be news to anyone in adoption-land, please check out this post at VVAI – it links to a long letter from the US Embassy concerning irregularites in Vietnam [...]

]]> By: MEW http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/25/summary-of-irregularities-in-adoptions-in-vietnam/comment-page-1/#comment-1711 MEW Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:24:52 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=135#comment-1711 I was happy to see that Nicki and another poster references PEAR and Ethica in their comments. As one of the two people on the PEAR board who has been involved with Vietnam adoptions, I have more comments about this than can fit in one email! I will streamline my answers and would be happy to write in more depth later. 1- This isn't just two years of corruption in VN adoptions. This has been going on long before VN opened up again. Old-timers like myself have been trying for years to warn people about the issues, but we were drowned out and shouted down by people who wanted their adoptions to go through....it was a discouraging time for us to know what was coming and not to be able to do anything about it. 2- It is time to do something about it! The numbers of families who've adoption from VN have grown, there are more people to help in this effort. PEAR certainly hopes to lead the way in this. All the heartache that everyone has been through should mean something...should result in something positive, especially since it might well be that this isn't the last shut-down we will see in a sending country. I venture to say that this is hopefully the beginning of an overhauling of adoption practices in all sending countries, and our own. We start by collecting information, 3- Collecting information....you are asking for names, and I think you are exactly right. Don't be surprised to see all 40+ agencies names on that list though. As others have pointed out, it is like the Watergate (I remember too!) who knew what and when. I have felt for a long time now that a few good agencies were trying to stand up to the practices of many not so good agencies, but that the tide was against them. But even the good ones can't be 100% sure about each detail of the process. When you aren't there to hear the conversations, how do you know if a birth parent was convinced to give up their child or not. Smart people that I trust 100% were duped too. For them, it was even more heartbreaking because they wanted so much to prove it could be done. Back to collecting info...we need to ask the VN adoption community to give "us" info, what agencies they used, what province, what their experinces were, etc. A few of us are working now on trying to come up with a system for how to do this, we hope VVAI will work with us on this. 4- PAPs always feel the lack of control so acutely, but no more so than in this case where many hopes and dreams have been lost. PAPs and APs don't have a lot of control in a shut-down, but we could...we need to. We need to take the lessons of this situation and use it to avoid others. We need to hold agencies more accountable, we need to do a better job of educating PAPs and we need to learn how to do this so we can help the next country who goes through this. Margaret mom to 2 girls from VN, 1999, 2006 I was happy to see that Nicki and another poster references PEAR and Ethica in their comments. As one of the two people on the PEAR board who has been involved with Vietnam adoptions, I have more comments about this than can fit in one email! I will streamline my answers and would be happy to write in more depth later.
1- This isn’t just two years of corruption in VN adoptions. This has been going on long before VN opened up again. Old-timers like myself have been trying for years to warn people about the issues, but we were drowned out and shouted down by people who wanted their adoptions to go through….it was a discouraging time for us to know what was coming and not to be able to do anything about it.
2- It is time to do something about it! The numbers of families who’ve adoption from VN have grown, there are more people to help in this effort. PEAR certainly hopes to lead the way in this. All the heartache that everyone has been through should mean something…should result in something positive, especially since it might well be that this isn’t the last shut-down we will see in a sending country. I venture to say that this is hopefully the beginning of an overhauling of adoption practices in all sending countries, and our own. We start by collecting information,
3- Collecting information….you are asking for names, and I think you are exactly right. Don’t be surprised to see all 40+ agencies names on that list though. As others have pointed out, it is like the Watergate (I remember too!) who knew what and when. I have felt for a long time now that a few good agencies were trying to stand up to the practices of many not so good agencies, but that the tide was against them. But even the good ones can’t be 100% sure about each detail of the process. When you aren’t there to hear the conversations, how do you know if a birth parent was convinced to give up their child or not. Smart people that I trust 100% were duped too. For them, it was even more heartbreaking because they wanted so much to prove it could be done. Back to collecting info…we need to ask the VN adoption community to give “us” info, what agencies they used, what province, what their experinces were, etc. A few of us are working now on trying to come up with a system for how to do this, we hope VVAI will work with us on this.
4- PAPs always feel the lack of control so acutely, but no more so than in this case where many hopes and dreams have been lost. PAPs and APs don’t have a lot of control in a shut-down, but we could…we need to. We need to take the lessons of this situation and use it to avoid others. We need to hold agencies more accountable, we need to do a better job of educating PAPs and we need to learn how to do this so we can help the next country who goes through this.
Margaret
mom to 2 girls from VN, 1999, 2006

]]> By: E http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/25/summary-of-irregularities-in-adoptions-in-vietnam/comment-page-1/#comment-1708 E Mon, 28 Apr 2008 04:59:41 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=135#comment-1708 Has anyone considered why the timing on this release of information? If this was information that the Embassy has been collecting over the past 2 years since the reopening, why release it all in one big report when the program is going to close again. Why not give out some evidence like this sooner so that parents could make more informed decisions about countries to pursue adoption from. I am sure it would have kept many families away, possibly limiting the demand, and maybe not putting so much stress on the program. Why not release all of this info when they gave out all the NOIDs last fall. Sure, we had all heard about many of these cases in one way or another, mostly from heresay or secondhand, but not from an official source that carries the kind of weight that the Embassy carries. The timing just seems odd to me, I have no conspiracy theory, just really wondering why not release this info sooner rather than later. Has anyone considered why the timing on this release of information? If this was information that the Embassy has been collecting over the past 2 years since the reopening, why release it all in one big report when the program is going to close again. Why not give out some evidence like this sooner so that parents could make more informed decisions about countries to pursue adoption from. I am sure it would have kept many families away, possibly limiting the demand, and maybe not putting so much stress on the program. Why not release all of this info when they gave out all the NOIDs last fall. Sure, we had all heard about many of these cases in one way or another, mostly from heresay or secondhand, but not from an official source that carries the kind of weight that the Embassy carries. The timing just seems odd to me, I have no conspiracy theory, just really wondering why not release this info sooner rather than later.

]]> By: Sarah http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/25/summary-of-irregularities-in-adoptions-in-vietnam/comment-page-1/#comment-1707 Sarah Mon, 28 Apr 2008 03:30:18 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=135#comment-1707 I have such mixed feelings about this. I am devestated that we will never receive our referral from Vietnam (really - no kids and now I'm not sure how I'll find them), but I am so entirely disgusted by what is in this report that I am also relieved that we will never receive our referral from Vietnam. We all know there has been corruption, but we only heard of incidents in isolation of each other. This report really puts it all together. And, I am afraid this is just the tip of the iceburg. I mean, the investigations did not even start until fairly recently, and we all know the USCIS is understaffed. There must be more. MUCH more. Ugh. And, no agency could possibly be completely above the corruption. Even if the wait was long (due to long wait lists), if the referrals were steady, something MUST have been going on, especially if you consider the fact that agencies working in the SAME provinces would receive NO (or barely any) referrals (and those agencies receiving no referrals must have at least been turning a blind eye). I have such mixed feelings about this. I am devestated that we will never receive our referral from Vietnam (really – no kids and now I’m not sure how I’ll find them), but I am so entirely disgusted by what is in this report that I am also relieved that we will never receive our referral from Vietnam. We all know there has been corruption, but we only heard of incidents in isolation of each other. This report really puts it all together. And, I am afraid this is just the tip of the iceburg. I mean, the investigations did not even start until fairly recently, and we all know the USCIS is understaffed. There must be more. MUCH more. Ugh. And, no agency could possibly be completely above the corruption. Even if the wait was long (due to long wait lists), if the referrals were steady, something MUST have been going on, especially if you consider the fact that agencies working in the SAME provinces would receive NO (or barely any) referrals (and those agencies receiving no referrals must have at least been turning a blind eye).

]]>