Comments on: AP Reports: Vietnam will cancel baby-adoption agreement with U.S. http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/28/ap-reports-vietnam-will-cancel-baby-adoption-agreement-with-us/ A collaborative blog advocating ethics in adoption Sat, 06 Sep 2008 16:43:55 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Gershom http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/28/ap-reports-vietnam-will-cancel-baby-adoption-agreement-with-us/#comment-1810 Gershom Fri, 02 May 2008 02:35:10 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=136#comment-1810 "F" I was never contacted, sorry. “F” I was never contacted, sorry.

]]> By: F http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/28/ap-reports-vietnam-will-cancel-baby-adoption-agreement-with-us/#comment-1790 F Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:29:55 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=136#comment-1790 Ok, I'm not <i>THE</i> <b>F</b>, just a different F Luara - I'm wondering how your investigation is going, as I am assuming that "M" has emailed you all of the phone #'s of those <i> individuals who have witnessed child trafficking</i>? Once you have phoned everyone and have compiled your results, perhaps you could have the <i>Admins</i> forward them to me. I have a friend who is a Hague attorney at the U.N. working for the Secretary General. Given the astronomical numbers reported (and presumably verified by you), this should be of great interest to the S.G. as this goes way beyond PAP's and AP's Gershorn - if you could do the same thing, as I'm sure that "M" and others have already emailed you, that would be ideal. Thank you. Ok, I’m not THE F, just a different F

Luara - I’m wondering how your investigation is going, as I am assuming that “M” has emailed you all of the phone #’s of those
individuals who have witnessed child trafficking? Once you have phoned everyone and have compiled your results, perhaps you could have the Admins forward them to me. I have a friend who is a Hague attorney at the U.N. working for the Secretary General. Given the astronomical numbers reported (and presumably verified by you), this should be of great interest to the S.G. as this goes way beyond PAP’s and AP’s
Gershorn - if you could do the same thing, as I’m sure that “M” and others have already emailed you, that would be ideal.
Thank you.

]]> By: BB http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/28/ap-reports-vietnam-will-cancel-baby-adoption-agreement-with-us/#comment-1789 BB Wed, 30 Apr 2008 14:40:17 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=136#comment-1789 well said rachel I agree 100% with you well said rachel I agree 100% with you

]]> By: mom2jill http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/28/ap-reports-vietnam-will-cancel-baby-adoption-agreement-with-us/#comment-1788 mom2jill Wed, 30 Apr 2008 14:27:57 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=136#comment-1788 It is too easy to blame our government, but although I do not like how they have handled the situation, they did not cause the corruption. There is plenty of blame to go around here. The Vietnamese government clearly did not uphold their end of the MOU, and clearly did not do enough to prevent corruption. Our government, I feel, was right to identify these practices, but did not seem to try to work together with the Vietnamese to stop the problem, instead taking a more combative approach. Agencies, not all but far too many, created a system ripe for abuse. PAPs too often want babies AYAP and either turn a blind eye to suspicious agency practices or (as I believe in most cases) truly trust in their agencies to do the right thing and never thought that such people could participate in anything so seedy. I don't really blame individual PAPs for such thoughts. I am (well was) one. When I decided to adopt a baby, I had images in my head of news reports showing needy children in orphanages who needed homes. Every agency will tell you of the great need in various countries and how there are countless children who need homes. Over the years, though, we have all seen other news reports of baby selling and other underhanded practices. I simply wanted another child. I chose international adoption because, despite the reports of abuse, I believed that there was a child out there for me who needed a home and I wanted to be that home. I tried to follow the advice of those who had done this before me and worked hard to choose an ethical agency. The problem is that I am only one of thousands who set out to do that, and all of us AS A GROUP are a contributing factor as our numbers provide incentive for unscrupulous people with dollar signs in their eyes. In my humble opinion, the only way to stop such corruption is to follow the money and have nearly failproof procedures which prevent people from profiting off the children, first families and PAPs. (Linh, how does the Hague provide for this?) I don't know if this is possible, but it is the only way IA can continue and remain in the best interest of all involved. It is too easy to blame our government, but although I do not like how they have handled the situation, they did not cause the corruption. There is plenty of blame to go around here. The Vietnamese government clearly did not uphold their end of the MOU, and clearly did not do enough to prevent corruption. Our government, I feel, was right to identify these practices, but did not seem to try to work together with the Vietnamese to stop the problem, instead taking a more combative approach. Agencies, not all but far too many, created a system ripe for abuse. PAPs too often want babies AYAP and either turn a blind eye to suspicious agency practices or (as I believe in most cases) truly trust in their agencies to do the right thing and never thought that such people could participate in anything so seedy. I don’t really blame individual PAPs for such thoughts. I am (well was) one. When I decided to adopt a baby, I had images in my head of news reports showing needy children in orphanages who needed homes. Every agency will tell you of the great need in various countries and how there are countless children who need homes. Over the years, though, we have all seen other news reports of baby selling and other underhanded practices. I simply wanted another child. I chose international adoption because, despite the reports of abuse, I believed that there was a child out there for me who needed a home and I wanted to be that home. I tried to follow the advice of those who had done this before me and worked hard to choose an ethical agency. The problem is that I am only one of thousands who set out to do that, and all of us AS A GROUP are a contributing factor as our numbers provide incentive for unscrupulous people with dollar signs in their eyes.
In my humble opinion, the only way to stop such corruption is to follow the money and have nearly failproof procedures which prevent people from profiting off the children, first families and PAPs. (Linh, how does the Hague provide for this?) I don’t know if this is possible, but it is the only way IA can continue and remain in the best interest of all involved.

]]> By: rachel http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/28/ap-reports-vietnam-will-cancel-baby-adoption-agreement-with-us/#comment-1787 rachel Wed, 30 Apr 2008 14:16:56 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=136#comment-1787 There is only one group of people who do not share any responsibility for this mess. The children. Aside from them, the responsibility falls on many shoulders. Most of this I put on the unethical provincial officials/agencies/baby brokers and any one who turned a blind eye to these practices. They are truly the root of the problem. Also, the US gov't. Did the US gov't aid in this shut down? Yes. Could they have handled this better? Probably. I completely agree with BB about bullying and poor foreign relations. Did they have alterior motives? A definite possibility. (I love this country, but believe me I am one of its biggest critics. Dissent is patriotic, right?) Are the "ethical" agencies partly to blame? I think so. Many had the power to push for more transparency. Are AP/PAP's partly to blame? Absolutely. Although I like to believe NO ONE knowingly would ever have any part of an unethical adoption, we are the ones handing over checks. We hold a lot of power, even though people never seem to believe this. I have to say I'm almost (but not really) amused that people are still finding ways around admitting the Vietnam program was not as transparent as it could have been. How many families have to come out with their stories before we all finally admit that corruption does exist in Vietnam? Corruption is not a figment of someone's imagination. It happens. It is happening somewhere in the world right now. It happened in Vietnam. I guess I am just not understanding why this is so hard to grasp. I realize it hurts to even think there is a REMOTE possibility that one's child could have been illegally, or unethically adopted. Been there. I don't believe that the Vietnam program was wrought with unethical practices. In fact, I actually believe most adoptions were on the up and up. But that's not what gets reported, is it? Those are not the stories our children are going to read when they get older. And that is why I feel so deeply that AP/PAP's need to face the facts of corruption. You cannot deal with your children growing up, reading the stories of VN adoption, without first coming to terms with it yourself. There is only one group of people who do not share any responsibility for this mess. The children.

Aside from them, the responsibility falls on many shoulders. Most of this I put on the unethical provincial officials/agencies/baby brokers and any one who turned a blind eye to these practices. They are truly the root of the problem. Also, the US gov’t. Did the US gov’t aid in this shut down? Yes. Could they have handled this better? Probably. I completely agree with BB about bullying and poor foreign relations. Did they have alterior motives? A definite possibility. (I love this country, but believe me I am one of its biggest critics. Dissent is patriotic, right?) Are the “ethical” agencies partly to blame? I think so. Many had the power to push for more transparency. Are AP/PAP’s partly to blame? Absolutely. Although I like to believe NO ONE knowingly would ever have any part of an unethical adoption, we are the ones handing over checks. We hold a lot of power, even though people never seem to believe this.

I have to say I’m almost (but not really) amused that people are still finding ways around admitting the Vietnam program was not as transparent as it could have been. How many families have to come out with their stories before we all finally admit that corruption does exist in Vietnam? Corruption is not a figment of someone’s imagination. It happens. It is happening somewhere in the world right now. It happened in Vietnam. I guess I am just not understanding why this is so hard to grasp.

I realize it hurts to even think there is a REMOTE possibility that one’s child could have been illegally, or unethically adopted. Been there. I don’t believe that the Vietnam program was wrought with unethical practices. In fact, I actually believe most adoptions were on the up and up. But that’s not what gets reported, is it? Those are not the stories our children are going to read when they get older. And that is why I feel so deeply that AP/PAP’s need to face the facts of corruption. You cannot deal with your children growing up, reading the stories of VN adoption, without first coming to terms with it yourself.

]]> By: KT http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/28/ap-reports-vietnam-will-cancel-baby-adoption-agreement-with-us/#comment-1786 KT Wed, 30 Apr 2008 13:05:23 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=136#comment-1786 In regards to the Embassy working with agencies, do you think they show in favoritism to certain? Based on what I have read over the past 6 mos. from AP's & PAP's it seems like some agencies I-600's seems to get through faster and smoother. Do you think they examine referrals from all agencies equally? In regards to the Embassy working with agencies, do you think they show in favoritism to certain? Based on what I have read over the past 6 mos. from AP’s & PAP’s it seems like some agencies I-600’s seems to get through faster and smoother. Do you think they examine referrals from all agencies equally?

]]> By: BB http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/28/ap-reports-vietnam-will-cancel-baby-adoption-agreement-with-us/#comment-1785 BB Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:47:34 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=136#comment-1785 Sorry to keep on, but do you think if our government had of handled things a little differently(political relations wise) that maybe both sides would have worked together. the chain of events makes it seem like that really was no0t an option,, gotta be our way or the highway. So 2 countries down (more if you go back far enough) how many more to go. Sorry to keep on, but do you think if our government had of handled things a little differently(political relations wise) that maybe both sides would have worked together. the chain of events makes it seem like that really was no0t an option,, gotta be our way or the highway. So 2 countries down (more if you go back far enough) how many more to go.

]]> By: BB http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/28/ap-reports-vietnam-will-cancel-baby-adoption-agreement-with-us/#comment-1784 BB Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:44:51 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=136#comment-1784 folks, I know many of you will say I must still be blind or will not admit it much like what has happened to F in regards to her posts. I am not in a situation where this effects me but do feel for all of the AP's out there who it does. just think about the chain of events, US embassy and consulate get way behind,,, have a pissing match with each other, get called on it by many many many people who were affected by it so they change the system. They promise one thing does not happen, say more still gets worse and now this. Just sound to fishy to me. Our government has a long long history of doing such as this time and time again. This in no means says the Vietnamese Gov't is squeeky clean themselves, but stuff just does not add up. I personally know of several cases and have heard and saw one of them when I was in country so yes it does happen. However their posting on the embassy website leads you to believe the entire country is. Just not so, they should post numbers for people instead of greatly exaggerating things to cya. lets just say that our govt (different agency) is in investigating actions by US embassy and consulates for thngs. I know of one person who had to go in country to do so, so this also leads me to believe somethings else is amiss. Regardless, things work different there and yet again our govt and their american bullying and posturing has caused issues. Maye just maybe one day we will get a clue and lets hope the next administration has better foreign relations talents than the current one. folks, I know many of you will say I must still be blind or will not admit it much like what has happened to F in regards to her posts. I am not in a situation where this effects me but do feel for all of the AP’s out there who it does. just think about the chain of events, US embassy and consulate get way behind,,, have a pissing match with each other, get called on it by many many many people who were affected by it so they change the system. They promise one thing does not happen, say more still gets worse and now this. Just sound to fishy to me. Our government has a long long history of doing such as this time and time again. This in no means says the Vietnamese Gov’t is squeeky clean themselves, but stuff just does not add up. I personally know of several cases and have heard and saw one of them when I was in country so yes it does happen. However their posting on the embassy website leads you to believe the entire country is. Just not so, they should post numbers for people instead of greatly exaggerating things to cya.

lets just say that our govt (different agency) is in investigating actions by US embassy and consulates for thngs. I know of one person who had to go in country to do so, so this also leads me to believe somethings else is amiss.

Regardless, things work different there and yet again our govt and their american bullying and posturing has caused issues. Maye just maybe one day we will get a clue and lets hope the next administration has better foreign relations talents than the current one.

]]> By: Laura http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/28/ap-reports-vietnam-will-cancel-baby-adoption-agreement-with-us/#comment-1783 Laura Wed, 30 Apr 2008 03:50:18 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=136#comment-1783 yes I do think that the government should share the complete report. Childrens and birth family names can be redacted, but I can't think of any privacy laws that protect the guiltly. People have a right to know their story - whether they're a child, PAP, or AP. If I do end up w/ a referral in time, and I accept the baby, I will want to know everything about his origin. Me, the baby, and the first family all deserve that much. Finally, I think that painting the whole country w/ such broad based allegations doens't do any one any good. IF the discussion stopped here, every person would have to conclude their adoption was unethical at best. That to me is unacceptable. yes I do think that the government should share the complete report. Childrens and birth family names can be redacted, but I can’t think of any privacy laws that protect the guiltly. People have a right to know their story - whether they’re a child, PAP, or AP. If I do end up w/ a referral in time, and I accept the baby, I will want to know everything about his origin. Me, the baby, and the first family all deserve that much. Finally, I think that painting the whole country w/ such broad based allegations doens’t do any one any good. IF the discussion stopped here, every person would have to conclude their adoption was unethical at best. That to me is unacceptable.

]]> By: Jennifer http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/04/28/ap-reports-vietnam-will-cancel-baby-adoption-agreement-with-us/#comment-1782 Jennifer Wed, 30 Apr 2008 03:22:46 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=136#comment-1782 Bravo, Laura! You said exactly how I feel. PAP Bravo, Laura! You said exactly how I feel.

PAP

]]>