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	<title>Comments on: If, Indeed</title>
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	<link>http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/10/18/if-indeed/</link>
	<description>A collaborative blog advocating ethics in adoption</description>
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		<title>By: girl4708</title>
		<link>http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/10/18/if-indeed/comment-page-1/#comment-2289</link>
		<dc:creator>girl4708</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 20:49:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=198#comment-2289</guid>
		<description>Tonya,

You shouldn&#039;t go away.  This is one of the few places I&#039;ve seen calm rational discourse.  It is a learning place.  And you seem open - don&#039;t shut yourself off!

The things you are feeling are common to adoptive parents.  Without your voice (thank God - refreshingly calm and rational) we can&#039;t have a dialogue.  We are only talking with ourselves at that point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tonya,</p>
<p>You shouldn&#8217;t go away.  This is one of the few places I&#8217;ve seen calm rational discourse.  It is a learning place.  And you seem open &#8211; don&#8217;t shut yourself off!</p>
<p>The things you are feeling are common to adoptive parents.  Without your voice (thank God &#8211; refreshingly calm and rational) we can&#8217;t have a dialogue.  We are only talking with ourselves at that point.</p>
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		<title>By: girl4708</title>
		<link>http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/10/18/if-indeed/comment-page-1/#comment-2288</link>
		<dc:creator>girl4708</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 20:17:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=198#comment-2288</guid>
		<description>Jena,


I REALLY appreciated your post, &lt;em&gt;If Indeed.

I wish the whole potential adoptive parent world could read it.  
I wish evolution did not have to be at such a high price, and that everyone could learn by listening and absorbing the experience of others, instead of replicating the same mistakes.

I try to consider the source whenever I read, and in this instance, the source is open, self critical, and evolving as a human being.

If I had to choose between you and Katherine C. Peel, who commented on one of my posts:  
http://adoptionsurvivor.wordpress.com/2008/10/06/anger-guilt-and-the-grieving-adoptee/ 
there is no question who is the better parent, and who will have a healthier relationship with their child.  

A theme I keep isolating and bringing up in other posts is the difference between an Aparent and a PARENT.  The stark and fundamental contrast between the two is defensiveness.  And defensiveness is often born of not wanting to feel guilt over something one actually feels uneasy about.  Defensiveness is a huge red flag that something is at issue, and it&#039;s not being addressed well.  Is validation as a parent really so necessary?

You have managed to drop the &#039;A&#039; from Aparent and become a PARENT.  For me at least, all I ever wanted was a parent.  But I got Katherine C. Peel instead.  I commend you for doing the hard self analysis, acknowledging when you were wrong, taking responsibility for your actions, and working towards positive change.  

All that is possible because you are willing to swallow your own discomfort and recognize it as a sign that there is work to be done.  A child can&#039;t ask for more than that!  A parent who embraces their fallibility and improves because of it.  A parent who is accessible instead of righteous.  A parent who is open to learning instead of closed.  

Your children will always respect you for this, because you&#039;ve acted out of respect for them.

I&#039;m glad to know you Jena, I wish you weren&#039;t so rare.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jena,</p>
<p>I REALLY appreciated your post, <em>If Indeed.</p>
<p>I wish the whole potential adoptive parent world could read it.<br />
I wish evolution did not have to be at such a high price, and that everyone could learn by listening and absorbing the experience of others, instead of replicating the same mistakes.</p>
<p>I try to consider the source whenever I read, and in this instance, the source is open, self critical, and evolving as a human being.</p>
<p>If I had to choose between you and Katherine C. Peel, who commented on one of my posts:<br />
<a href="http://adoptionsurvivor.wordpress.com/2008/10/06/anger-guilt-and-the-grieving-adoptee/" rel="nofollow">http://adoptionsurvivor.wordpress.com/2008/10/06/anger-guilt-and-the-grieving-adoptee/</a><br />
there is no question who is the better parent, and who will have a healthier relationship with their child.  </p>
<p>A theme I keep isolating and bringing up in other posts is the difference between an Aparent and a PARENT.  The stark and fundamental contrast between the two is defensiveness.  And defensiveness is often born of not wanting to feel guilt over something one actually feels uneasy about.  Defensiveness is a huge red flag that something is at issue, and it&#8217;s not being addressed well.  Is validation as a parent really so necessary?</p>
<p>You have managed to drop the &#8216;A&#8217; from Aparent and become a PARENT.  For me at least, all I ever wanted was a parent.  But I got Katherine C. Peel instead.  I commend you for doing the hard self analysis, acknowledging when you were wrong, taking responsibility for your actions, and working towards positive change.  </p>
<p>All that is possible because you are willing to swallow your own discomfort and recognize it as a sign that there is work to be done.  A child can&#8217;t ask for more than that!  A parent who embraces their fallibility and improves because of it.  A parent who is accessible instead of righteous.  A parent who is open to learning instead of closed.  </p>
<p>Your children will always respect you for this, because you&#8217;ve acted out of respect for them.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad to know you Jena, I wish you weren&#8217;t so rare.</em></p>
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		<title>By: bella</title>
		<link>http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/10/18/if-indeed/comment-page-1/#comment-2266</link>
		<dc:creator>bella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 09:23:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=198#comment-2266</guid>
		<description>Mira,
While I appreciate your point of view, I am a bit annoyed that you come to this forum with the assumption that &#039;we&#039; do not understand the issues of international adoption. You have come off very righteous- as though &#039;educating&#039; us- and again, assuming most of us are in some fluffy cloud of denial.
In a perfect world, there would be no adoption and children would never be separated from their families, there would be no poverty, countries could take care of their own and every parent would want to parent (relinquishment and abandonment are not always about poverty), there would be no corruption, etc. etc.
Have you ever spent any time volunteering/visiting/working in an orphanage? Seriously, I would like to know. You say you are an adoption expert, so I will assume that you have. If you haven&#039;t, I suggest you take some time to do so. And no, I don&#039;t say this to endorse adoption or water down the issues, but it&#039;s something that I think anyone who claims to be an expert should do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mira,<br />
While I appreciate your point of view, I am a bit annoyed that you come to this forum with the assumption that &#8216;we&#8217; do not understand the issues of international adoption. You have come off very righteous- as though &#8216;educating&#8217; us- and again, assuming most of us are in some fluffy cloud of denial.<br />
In a perfect world, there would be no adoption and children would never be separated from their families, there would be no poverty, countries could take care of their own and every parent would want to parent (relinquishment and abandonment are not always about poverty), there would be no corruption, etc. etc.<br />
Have you ever spent any time volunteering/visiting/working in an orphanage? Seriously, I would like to know. You say you are an adoption expert, so I will assume that you have. If you haven&#8217;t, I suggest you take some time to do so. And no, I don&#8217;t say this to endorse adoption or water down the issues, but it&#8217;s something that I think anyone who claims to be an expert should do.</p>
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		<title>By: Mirah Riben</title>
		<link>http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/10/18/if-indeed/comment-page-1/#comment-2263</link>
		<dc:creator>Mirah Riben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 03:54:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=198#comment-2263</guid>
		<description>Tonya - I do not pretend to have walked a mile in any of your shoes - anymore than any of you have walked in mine - or those of any mother who has lost a child to adoption, or those who have been adopted. I have, however researched adoption for forty years. 

My current book - which contains a chapter to help PAPS avoid being scammed -  is, I believe, reviewed in the current (Oct) issue of Adoption Today.  RESOLVE said of my first book:  &quot;...it is recommended for those who prefer the truth, even if unpleasant, to unquestioned adoption mythology.&quot; 

And Gigi Wirtz, Families Adopting Children Everywhere (FACE) said this:
&quot;Although not an easy book for an adoptive parent to read, this is certainly an important book for anyone striving to understand all sides of the adoption triangle. The good news (for adoptive parents) is that Riben is not slamming adoptive parents...her really big guns are leveled at The System. I recommend that adoptive parents read this book.&quot;

I quote these not to brag, or to change any minds. I understand - that this is very upsetting for many.  

And PS: Yes, my books ARE edited though my blog comments are not. :-)

I wish you - and your children well. It is they that this is all about and it is THEM that you will have to answer you not me!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tonya &#8211; I do not pretend to have walked a mile in any of your shoes &#8211; anymore than any of you have walked in mine &#8211; or those of any mother who has lost a child to adoption, or those who have been adopted. I have, however researched adoption for forty years. </p>
<p>My current book &#8211; which contains a chapter to help PAPS avoid being scammed &#8211;  is, I believe, reviewed in the current (Oct) issue of Adoption Today.  RESOLVE said of my first book:  &#8220;&#8230;it is recommended for those who prefer the truth, even if unpleasant, to unquestioned adoption mythology.&#8221; </p>
<p>And Gigi Wirtz, Families Adopting Children Everywhere (FACE) said this:<br />
&#8220;Although not an easy book for an adoptive parent to read, this is certainly an important book for anyone striving to understand all sides of the adoption triangle. The good news (for adoptive parents) is that Riben is not slamming adoptive parents&#8230;her really big guns are leveled at The System. I recommend that adoptive parents read this book.&#8221;</p>
<p>I quote these not to brag, or to change any minds. I understand &#8211; that this is very upsetting for many.  </p>
<p>And PS: Yes, my books ARE edited though my blog comments are not. <img src='http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I wish you &#8211; and your children well. It is they that this is all about and it is THEM that you will have to answer you not me!</p>
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		<title>By: Tonya</title>
		<link>http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/10/18/if-indeed/comment-page-1/#comment-2260</link>
		<dc:creator>Tonya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 21:33:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=198#comment-2260</guid>
		<description>I have a few points I would like to make.

1. I would like to say &quot;thank you&quot; to the people responsible for this blog. Over the past 2 years, this site has provided me with tons of information (some I agree with and some I do not). If nothing else, it has created healthy debates which always gets people thinking and examining their own situations. That is always a good thing. It has definetly helped me personally.

However, over the past few days, I have felt the same as Jenny from above. I have felt accused! Additionally, I felt like I have been threatened and blamed! I have felt like I have been linked to something bad when in fact, I truely feel like I have tried to do the right thing. 

2. One poster in particular, Mirah, proclaims to be an expert researcher and her own words appear to make her somehow superior to everyone else. Give me a break. She can barely put together a grammatically correct sentence or thought. I hope her book publisher provided her with an editor to assist with her lack of proper writing skills. I realize this statement is rude and possibly inappropriate--but how dare she claim to be more knowledgable and to have better intentions than the rest of us, when she hasn&#039;t even met us. She may not have directly stated these words, but the perception was definetly implied!

3. Nobody knows my intentions except for me and God. My heart is pure and I had good intentions with my choice to build my family thru adoption. It is my guess that most people chosing to build thier families thru adoption (domestically or internationally) have pure intentions as well. 

I am FAR from a celebrity adopting for unknown reasons-and to be compared to one is insulting. I am a special education teacher in a small town. I have dedicated my entire life (since I was in the 3rd grade) to working with individuals and children with severe and profound intellectual and physical disabilities. I have also volunteered for many children&#039;s causes for many years. Several years ago realized it was time to become a mom! I chose to adopt. It was not a last resort for me and I didn&#039;t feel I was entitled to a child. I simply knew that I had a loving, stable home and I chose to build my family this way. This in no way makes me any better than anyone else, I just wanted to tell you a little of my background. In addition, I could tell you all the conferences I have attended or spoke at and the papers I have written on special needs children but I won&#039;t do so because it in no way make me above anyone else. This experience makes me knowledgeable in a certain field but it doesn&#039;t make me want to accuse strangers of having certain intentions. 

4. I do agree 100% agree with Mirah on one point in particular: International Adoption should be a last resort for an orphaned child. I do believe that it is best for a child to remain with his/her birth family or birth country. However, I also realize that there are instances where this cannot happen for a child. International adoption is sometimes a child&#039;s last chance of finding a family. That is the child I was hoping to adopt!!  

5. With the recent developments in Vietnam and other countries, this door has been shut for many children. For a child that international adoption is the last resort, his/her chances have no doubt diminshed. Yes, there are other countries other than USA that adopt internationally, so the child may find a family from another country....that is my hope for the children where IA is thier last chance. 

6. And finally, I must admit that I will probably take a break from this site. As stated above, I am thankful for the information I have received here over the past 2 years,  but I am equally saddened by the way I have felt recently after reading some posts. This decision has nothing to do with any one post, person, or reply--it is simply a personal choice. For my own sake, I must surround myself with positive thoughts and feelings. I am not saying I don&#039;t want to hear honest (and sometimes harmful) facts. I realize that educating oneself is an important part of making decisions. However, presentation of facts are also important. Unfortunately, I have not felt that facts have been given in a constructive manner...instead I feel that angry words have been supported and encouraged. I include myself in this statement. Looking back, I see that I have occasionally typed some harmful words. I recongize that and I cannot and will not continue to be a part of it. 

I wish everyone the best of luck in their future endeavors...whatever they may be. I will continue to pray for all the orpans in the world (both domestically and internationally). Every child has the right to a loving family-I hope that one day all children will feel the love of a caring family (whether it be a birth family or an adoptive family).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a few points I would like to make.</p>
<p>1. I would like to say &#8220;thank you&#8221; to the people responsible for this blog. Over the past 2 years, this site has provided me with tons of information (some I agree with and some I do not). If nothing else, it has created healthy debates which always gets people thinking and examining their own situations. That is always a good thing. It has definetly helped me personally.</p>
<p>However, over the past few days, I have felt the same as Jenny from above. I have felt accused! Additionally, I felt like I have been threatened and blamed! I have felt like I have been linked to something bad when in fact, I truely feel like I have tried to do the right thing. </p>
<p>2. One poster in particular, Mirah, proclaims to be an expert researcher and her own words appear to make her somehow superior to everyone else. Give me a break. She can barely put together a grammatically correct sentence or thought. I hope her book publisher provided her with an editor to assist with her lack of proper writing skills. I realize this statement is rude and possibly inappropriate&#8211;but how dare she claim to be more knowledgable and to have better intentions than the rest of us, when she hasn&#8217;t even met us. She may not have directly stated these words, but the perception was definetly implied!</p>
<p>3. Nobody knows my intentions except for me and God. My heart is pure and I had good intentions with my choice to build my family thru adoption. It is my guess that most people chosing to build thier families thru adoption (domestically or internationally) have pure intentions as well. </p>
<p>I am FAR from a celebrity adopting for unknown reasons-and to be compared to one is insulting. I am a special education teacher in a small town. I have dedicated my entire life (since I was in the 3rd grade) to working with individuals and children with severe and profound intellectual and physical disabilities. I have also volunteered for many children&#8217;s causes for many years. Several years ago realized it was time to become a mom! I chose to adopt. It was not a last resort for me and I didn&#8217;t feel I was entitled to a child. I simply knew that I had a loving, stable home and I chose to build my family this way. This in no way makes me any better than anyone else, I just wanted to tell you a little of my background. In addition, I could tell you all the conferences I have attended or spoke at and the papers I have written on special needs children but I won&#8217;t do so because it in no way make me above anyone else. This experience makes me knowledgeable in a certain field but it doesn&#8217;t make me want to accuse strangers of having certain intentions. </p>
<p>4. I do agree 100% agree with Mirah on one point in particular: International Adoption should be a last resort for an orphaned child. I do believe that it is best for a child to remain with his/her birth family or birth country. However, I also realize that there are instances where this cannot happen for a child. International adoption is sometimes a child&#8217;s last chance of finding a family. That is the child I was hoping to adopt!!  </p>
<p>5. With the recent developments in Vietnam and other countries, this door has been shut for many children. For a child that international adoption is the last resort, his/her chances have no doubt diminshed. Yes, there are other countries other than USA that adopt internationally, so the child may find a family from another country&#8230;.that is my hope for the children where IA is thier last chance. </p>
<p>6. And finally, I must admit that I will probably take a break from this site. As stated above, I am thankful for the information I have received here over the past 2 years,  but I am equally saddened by the way I have felt recently after reading some posts. This decision has nothing to do with any one post, person, or reply&#8211;it is simply a personal choice. For my own sake, I must surround myself with positive thoughts and feelings. I am not saying I don&#8217;t want to hear honest (and sometimes harmful) facts. I realize that educating oneself is an important part of making decisions. However, presentation of facts are also important. Unfortunately, I have not felt that facts have been given in a constructive manner&#8230;instead I feel that angry words have been supported and encouraged. I include myself in this statement. Looking back, I see that I have occasionally typed some harmful words. I recongize that and I cannot and will not continue to be a part of it. </p>
<p>I wish everyone the best of luck in their future endeavors&#8230;whatever they may be. I will continue to pray for all the orpans in the world (both domestically and internationally). Every child has the right to a loving family-I hope that one day all children will feel the love of a caring family (whether it be a birth family or an adoptive family).</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/10/18/if-indeed/comment-page-1/#comment-2259</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 20:08:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=198#comment-2259</guid>
		<description>Jena and Jenny,
Like yourselves, I look back over the past two years as a sort of loss of innocence for myself.  Don&#039;t get me wrong, I researched, I wasn&#039;t desperate (adoption was a choice for my family, though I don&#039;t think the assumption that infertile couples looking to adopt are &quot;desperate&quot; is a fair one), I wasn&#039;t looking for a fast adoption, I thought I&#039;d read and learned enough to avoid pitfalls and unethical adoptions.  The truth seems to be, in every country, in every new program, there will always be first-time adopters.  I&#039;m sure they will try, as so many of is did, to learn from the experiences of others.  I think the best way to go forward now is to look to change the SYSTEM so that it protects birth/first families, children, and PAPs (from our own ignorance if nothing else).   Groups like Ethica and Pear can lead the way.  Instead of assigning blame, and yes there&#039;s plenty to go around, let&#039;s out our time and energy instead into putting in place structures that will prevent the problems that have shut Vietnam down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jena and Jenny,<br />
Like yourselves, I look back over the past two years as a sort of loss of innocence for myself.  Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I researched, I wasn&#8217;t desperate (adoption was a choice for my family, though I don&#8217;t think the assumption that infertile couples looking to adopt are &#8220;desperate&#8221; is a fair one), I wasn&#8217;t looking for a fast adoption, I thought I&#8217;d read and learned enough to avoid pitfalls and unethical adoptions.  The truth seems to be, in every country, in every new program, there will always be first-time adopters.  I&#8217;m sure they will try, as so many of is did, to learn from the experiences of others.  I think the best way to go forward now is to look to change the SYSTEM so that it protects birth/first families, children, and PAPs (from our own ignorance if nothing else).   Groups like Ethica and Pear can lead the way.  Instead of assigning blame, and yes there&#8217;s plenty to go around, let&#8217;s out our time and energy instead into putting in place structures that will prevent the problems that have shut Vietnam down.</p>
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		<title>By: Jenny</title>
		<link>http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2008/10/18/if-indeed/comment-page-1/#comment-2258</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 16:32:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=198#comment-2258</guid>
		<description>Thank you Jena for this post.  I am grateful for your fair and level headed approach.  I know that Mirah has a lot of good information and it is important to put it out there - I was just put off by her tone in her initial post.  I felt incredibly accused.  And I&#039;m not sure that approach is going to be helpful for those now trying to decide where to go next. They are already in pain.  

I am still in the process of my Vietnam adoption so I guess I take all of this to heart.   What am I supposed to do with this information?  Let go of my referral?  I can tell you after 2 years of being in this process and all I have invested - I am unlikely to let go now.  I guess that is selfish of me knowing some of what I know now.  

When I started the process I guess I was extremely naive.  Adoption was not a last resort for me - but I thought it made sense due to the fact that I wanted a child and there were children out there who needed homes (or so I thought).  I did not feel the need to have a bio kid or add to the world population.  I was not trying to &quot;rescue&quot; anyone.  I just thought it was a simple equation that made sense.  Little did I know....  

The reason I chose international adoption was because I am single.  I assumed that a birth mother would not choose a single woman and my agency told me that it would&#039;ve been difficult.  I have since found out that I likely could have gone this route if I was open to a wide range of circumstances.   Had my VN adoption fallen through - my intention was to do a domestic adoption.  But my VN adoption did not fall through.

Do I wish I could go back and make some different decisions?  Sure. But realistically - I am not going to change things now.  I don&#039;t even really know if that would be best for my (older) referred child.  I don&#039;t know if she would find another home.  

I will wonder and worry about all of this throughout my child&#039;s life.  I am grateful to have this information even though it is hard to take.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Jena for this post.  I am grateful for your fair and level headed approach.  I know that Mirah has a lot of good information and it is important to put it out there &#8211; I was just put off by her tone in her initial post.  I felt incredibly accused.  And I&#8217;m not sure that approach is going to be helpful for those now trying to decide where to go next. They are already in pain.  </p>
<p>I am still in the process of my Vietnam adoption so I guess I take all of this to heart.   What am I supposed to do with this information?  Let go of my referral?  I can tell you after 2 years of being in this process and all I have invested &#8211; I am unlikely to let go now.  I guess that is selfish of me knowing some of what I know now.  </p>
<p>When I started the process I guess I was extremely naive.  Adoption was not a last resort for me &#8211; but I thought it made sense due to the fact that I wanted a child and there were children out there who needed homes (or so I thought).  I did not feel the need to have a bio kid or add to the world population.  I was not trying to &#8220;rescue&#8221; anyone.  I just thought it was a simple equation that made sense.  Little did I know&#8230;.  </p>
<p>The reason I chose international adoption was because I am single.  I assumed that a birth mother would not choose a single woman and my agency told me that it would&#8217;ve been difficult.  I have since found out that I likely could have gone this route if I was open to a wide range of circumstances.   Had my VN adoption fallen through &#8211; my intention was to do a domestic adoption.  But my VN adoption did not fall through.</p>
<p>Do I wish I could go back and make some different decisions?  Sure. But realistically &#8211; I am not going to change things now.  I don&#8217;t even really know if that would be best for my (older) referred child.  I don&#8217;t know if she would find another home.  </p>
<p>I will wonder and worry about all of this throughout my child&#8217;s life.  I am grateful to have this information even though it is hard to take.</p>
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