Comments on: UNICEF Report and its impact http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2009/11/24/unicef-report-and-its-impact/ A collaborative blog advocating ethics in adoption Fri, 27 Jan 2012 00:31:26 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Karl http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2009/11/24/unicef-report-and-its-impact/comment-page-1/#comment-4210 Karl Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:50:09 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=476#comment-4210 You asked whether 'the babies' are actually abandoned. I think you're asking only about those babies which are adopted internationally. In answer, I'd say no, most are not abandoned. The VNese gov't has a system in place whereby foreigners wanting a baby have to specify age and sex. Because this is a money-making thing for all VNese people involved, babies are located or acquired through individuals/agencies who serve as middleman between the foreigner and the VNese gov't. Many of these babies don't just happen to be available. While babies are being abandoned here regularly, they end up going in different directions (to orphanages, pagodas and individuals via hospital staff - although that is perhaps happening less right now). Foreigners want healthy babies and all of the VNese people involved do want to satisfy the foreigners. So, find them 'a good one'. They will buy it if its not available through the preferred connection (and the staff working with adoptions at the Ministry of Justice surely each have their own preferred connections). But, ethically (look at Comment by BB, 2009-12-07 11:00:43), birth families are 'relinquishing' (selling) their babies because they are very poor and have other mouths to feed, and they're surely being told that the baby's going to experience 'the good life'. This is all up front - its just not the value system of Westerners. So we have 'relinquished', 'abandoned', and 'orphaned through the death of both parents'. That last one would satisfy the ethical qualms of any Westerner until they learn of the great feeling of extended family responsibility that VNese people do feel... You asked whether ‘the babies’ are actually abandoned. I think you’re asking only about those babies which are adopted internationally. In answer, I’d say no, most are not abandoned. The VNese gov’t has a system in place whereby foreigners wanting a baby have to specify age and sex. Because this is a money-making thing for all VNese people involved, babies are located or acquired through individuals/agencies who serve as middleman between the foreigner and the VNese gov’t. Many of these babies don’t just happen to be available. While babies are being abandoned here regularly, they end up going in different directions (to orphanages, pagodas and individuals via hospital staff – although that is perhaps happening less right now). Foreigners want healthy babies and all of the VNese people involved do want to satisfy the foreigners. So, find them ‘a good one’. They will buy it if its not available through the preferred connection (and the staff working with adoptions at the Ministry of Justice surely each have their own preferred connections). But, ethically (look at Comment by BB, 2009-12-07 11:00:43), birth families are ‘relinquishing’ (selling) their babies because they are very poor and have other mouths to feed, and they’re surely being told that the baby’s going to experience ‘the good life’. This is all up front – its just not the value system of Westerners. So we have ‘relinquished’, ‘abandoned’, and ‘orphaned through the death of both parents’. That last one would satisfy the ethical qualms of any Westerner until they learn of the great feeling of extended family responsibility that VNese people do feel…

]]> By: PJ http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2009/11/24/unicef-report-and-its-impact/comment-page-1/#comment-4209 PJ Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:30:00 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=476#comment-4209 David, Do the research. Unicef is the leading voice in enacting laws prohibiting and restricting inter-country adoption. They politically say that keep children in their country of origin is in their best interest. And that adoption should be a last resort (often, including growing up in an orphanage). David,
Do the research. Unicef is the leading voice in enacting laws prohibiting and restricting inter-country adoption. They politically say that keep children in their country of origin is in their best interest. And that adoption should be a last resort (often, including growing up in an orphanage).

]]> By: David http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2009/11/24/unicef-report-and-its-impact/comment-page-1/#comment-4208 David Tue, 30 Mar 2010 03:12:53 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=476#comment-4208 Does anyone have any documentable proof that UNICEF is fundamentally against inter country adoption? Does anyone have any documentable proof that UNICEF is fundamentally against inter country adoption?

]]> By: Bella http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2009/11/24/unicef-report-and-its-impact/comment-page-1/#comment-4133 Bella Fri, 22 Jan 2010 15:49:59 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=476#comment-4133 Sorry Una but could you provide the link again in regards to adoption law etc... By the way you haven't caused concern but I hate to see people posting what they state are facts but with no back up. Being honest I could post some 'facts' also and who is to say whether they are correct or not. As I said not trying to start an argument but if people are willing to state something as fact then they should be willing to provide the back-up. Sorry Una but could you provide the link again in regards to adoption law etc… By the way you haven’t caused concern but I hate to see people posting what they state are facts but with no back up. Being honest I could post some ‘facts’ also and who is to say whether they are correct or not. As I said not trying to start an argument but if people are willing to state something as fact then they should be willing to provide the back-up.

]]> By: una mullen http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2009/11/24/unicef-report-and-its-impact/comment-page-1/#comment-4127 una mullen Fri, 15 Jan 2010 17:00:25 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=476#comment-4127 Im sorry I have caused such anxiety. As I personally had no idea where to get these statistics from in Vn I asked my friend to do so on my behalf. I only asked for the provinces Irish Couples adopted from. I am not 100% sure who he asked but I think they came from the orphanages themselves or the local justice dept of each province. Ireland is a very small country and our adoption community even smaller. There were a huge number of referrals from TN in 2007 less in 2008 and only a small number in 2009. The drop was noticable to AP's as the numbers from other provinces suddenly increased dramatically. All this only began after the US report in 2008. The "Relinquishment Law" in TN which was used to explain the number of abandonments never exsisted. This I do know and I had it confirmed by the Dept of Justice in TN. If you check article 68 and 69 which deals with Vietnamese adoption law there is no mention of such an abandonment law. I hope I have made things a little clearer. Yesterday our government announced they will not pursue a new Treaty with Vietnam. Adoptions will be allowed when Vn become Hague compliant. You can check the Minister for children's statement on the subject by just googling the website for The Office of the Minister for Children. Im sorry I have caused such anxiety. As I personally had no idea where to get these statistics from in Vn I asked my friend to do so on my behalf. I only asked for the provinces Irish Couples adopted from. I am not 100% sure who he asked but I think they came from the orphanages themselves or the local justice dept of each province. Ireland is a very small country and our adoption community even smaller. There were a huge number of referrals from TN in 2007 less in 2008 and only a small number in 2009. The drop was noticable to AP’s as the numbers from other provinces suddenly increased dramatically. All this only began after the US report in 2008. The “Relinquishment Law” in TN which was used to explain the number of abandonments never exsisted. This I do know and I had it confirmed by the Dept of Justice in TN. If you check article 68 and 69 which deals with Vietnamese adoption law there is no mention of such an abandonment law. I hope I have made things a little clearer.
Yesterday our government announced they will not pursue a new Treaty with Vietnam. Adoptions will be allowed when Vn become Hague compliant. You can check the Minister for children’s statement on the subject by just googling the website for The Office of the Minister for Children.

]]> By: lil5 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2009/11/24/unicef-report-and-its-impact/comment-page-1/#comment-4126 lil5 Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:10:38 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=476#comment-4126 Vietnam adoption agreement suspended - decision based on 'flawed' ISS report - see links below Press announcement OMC - http://www.omc.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=1226 Newspapers - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0114/breaking76.htm http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0115/1224262377981.html http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hundreds-of-parents-in-limbo-on-adoptions-2014999.html http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/anger-as-government-bans-vietnam-adoptions-109751.html Vietnam adoption agreement suspended – decision based on ‘flawed’ ISS report – see links below

Press announcement OMC –
http://www.omc.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=1226

Newspapers –
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0114/breaking76.htm
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0115/1224262377981.html
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hundreds-of-parents-in-limbo-on-adoptions-2014999.html
http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/anger-as-government-bans-vietnam-adoptions-109751.html

]]> By: Jennifer http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2009/11/24/unicef-report-and-its-impact/comment-page-1/#comment-4115 Jennifer Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:42:55 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=476#comment-4115 Nicki - I can only speak for me - but I was looking for the backup for this statement you made: "In provinces where there is no adoption, abandonment rates are much lower." Una offered some statistics from TN (which I assume to be Thai Nguyen) - "In 2009 the number of Adoptions from TN was 40 . In 2007 when all countries were still adopting that number was close to 200." I questioned Una about this because an adoption does not necessarily mean an abanondment and Una came back to state that "The abandonment rate for TN in 2009 was 42 infants in 2007 it was closer to 200+." I believe that Bella wanted to know where these statistics came from. Una stated that she got them from a Vietnamese friend. I am not saying I doubt your statement Nicki - I just wanted to see the backup for my own clarification and to see if there was any mention of my child's province. I worry a lot about the circumstances of my child's background after hearing all these things. Facts would be so very helpful. If I were to find out there was something unethical about my child's adoption I would want to take the necessary steps to rectify the situation. Jennifer Nicki -

I can only speak for me – but I was looking for the backup for this statement you made: “In provinces where there is no adoption, abandonment rates are much lower.”

Una offered some statistics from TN (which I assume to be Thai Nguyen) – “In 2009 the number of Adoptions from TN was 40 . In 2007 when all countries were still adopting that number was close to 200.”

I questioned Una about this because an adoption does not necessarily mean an abanondment and Una came back to state that “The abandonment rate for TN in 2009 was 42 infants in 2007 it was closer to 200+.”

I believe that Bella wanted to know where these statistics came from. Una stated that she got them from a Vietnamese friend.

I am not saying I doubt your statement Nicki – I just wanted to see the backup for my own clarification and to see if there was any mention of my child’s province. I worry a lot about the circumstances of my child’s background after hearing all these things. Facts would be so very helpful. If I were to find out there was something unethical about my child’s adoption I would want to take the necessary steps to rectify the situation.

Jennifer

]]> By: Nicki http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2009/11/24/unicef-report-and-its-impact/comment-page-1/#comment-4112 Nicki Tue, 12 Jan 2010 20:08:08 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=476#comment-4112 I'm sorry if this is totally obvious but which statistics are you both challenging? I'm having trouble following the thread.... I’m sorry if this is totally obvious but which statistics are you both challenging? I’m having trouble following the thread….

]]> By: Jennifer http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2009/11/24/unicef-report-and-its-impact/comment-page-1/#comment-4111 Jennifer Tue, 12 Jan 2010 20:05:22 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=476#comment-4111 Bella - I agree - I would like to see where this information comes from. Not that I necessarily doubt it - but I'd still like it verified. Things like this shouldn't be stated as fact when there is no real back up information. Bella – I agree – I would like to see where this information comes from. Not that I necessarily doubt it – but I’d still like it verified. Things like this shouldn’t be stated as fact when there is no real back up information.

]]> By: Bella http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/2009/11/24/unicef-report-and-its-impact/comment-page-1/#comment-4110 Bella Tue, 12 Jan 2010 12:43:37 +0000 http://www.adoptionintegrity.com/?p=476#comment-4110 But they must have got the statistics from somewhere? They were I assume not plucked out of thin air? So somewhere there has to be a report or something similiar with those figures on it. I would love to see that. Otherwise they are just something that someone said that someone said?? I am not arguing with the figures but unless they exist somewhere on a report that can be seen by us then they are not verifiable and the statement is pointless. But they must have got the statistics from somewhere? They were I assume not plucked out of thin air? So somewhere there has to be a report or something similiar with those figures on it. I would love to see that. Otherwise they are just something that someone said that someone said?? I am not arguing with the figures but unless they exist somewhere on a report that can be seen by us then they are not verifiable and the statement is pointless.

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